"Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner seem to want to stay in politics"
American investigative journalist Andrea Bernstein, author of the fascinating book "American Oligarchs", has studied in detail the rise of the Trump and Kushner families. Less than a month before Donald Trump's departure, she responds to Paris Match.
The Trumps and the Kushners, two wealthy families allied by marriage, are preparing to leave the heights of power. Donald Trump, the billionaire president, will have to leave the White House on January 20, just like his daughter Ivanka and his son-in-law, Jared Kushner, two of his most influential advisers. Since his defeat on November 3, the outgoing head of state has done everything possible to undermine the legitimacy of his successor Joe Biden. While neither he nor his clan seem willing to slip away from the political scene, Paris Match interviewed New York investigative journalist Andrea Bernstein.
With the podcast she hosts, "Trump, Inc.," she has helped document the gender mix, ethical compromise, and corruption that prevailed within the administration of the 45th President of the United States. In her book "American Oligarchs: The Kushners, the Trumps & the Marriage of Money and Power" (ed. WW Norton), she goes back to the sources of the fortunes of the two families and in particular traces the rise of the last generation, represented by Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner, two figures of the New York elite ... entered politics thanks to a populist candidate.
Paris Match. Do you think that Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner, when they leave the White House on January 20, will be able to return to their former lives, far removed from their daily life as advisers to the President for four years?
Andrea Bernstein. I don't feel like they're trying to get their lives back. All of their statements indicate that they seek to remain in politics, Ivanka Trump in particular. She spoke about it during her speech at the Republican convention. She decided to quit her fashion business in July 2018 and she did not say she was leaving it aside for a while to come back to it later. Another indication: The couple have said they will be expanding what they call their "cottage," located within the Trump Golf Course in Bedminster, New Jersey. The "New York Post" revealed on Dec. 7 that they will also be buying land for $ 30 million in Miami, Florida. There seems no way for them to come back to live in New York.
What would be the consequences for Jared Kushner, who ran a newspaper and the family real estate business before joining the White House?
Jared Kushner is in a slightly different situation: when he left his company, his office and his title of CEO were preserved for him. There was an expectation on his part that he would get involved in family affairs again. But the business today is very different from what it was when Jared joined it. At that time, succeeding in Manhattan, building skyscrapers there, was the ambition of Jared and his father, Charles Kushner [recently pardoned by Donald Trump, ed]. Jared had tried to put together a project for a huge tower located on Fifth Avenue in New York City, which was to be designed by architect Zaha Hadid ... But today, most of Kushner Companies' income comes from apartment buildings housing families, in New Jersey, Maryland or Virginia. It's hard to imagine Jared making the choice to orient his career towards a company like this.
Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump are among the few people who have stayed with Donald Trump throughout his tenure. Do they owe it only to their family proximity?
What has given Jared Kushner so much power is that he has Trump's ear in the west wing of the White House, where the heart of government is, and also in the east wing. , where the family lives. If Trump wants to have dinner with his grandchildren, Jared Kushner is there. And it is quite certain that Trump's management style leads him to take the advice of the last person he spoke to. Plus, Jared Kusher's dad looks a lot like Trump in some ways. All his life, Jared has been trained to deal with men like this. He understands how to retain his power in this kind of situation and he succeeded.
Why does Donald Trump rely so much on his loved ones?
Traditionally, with the Trumps, business has been run in the family. These practices were applied to the presidential campaign, then to the White House. Donald Trump deeply believes in family ties, at least for close family, because as we know, he is being sued by his niece. He is most loyal to his children and they are extraordinarily loyal to him. This loyalty came at a cost to Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump. In the universe they had settled in in New York and New Jersey, dozens of people I interviewed thought Jared and Ivanka were "one of them." They thought they could talk to them, persuade them to be sane. And these people felt betrayed. This is the quid pro quo for Donald Trump's loyalty.
"In all situations, Jared Kushner is convinced he has mastered the subject, when in reality he knows nothing about it"
In the early days of the Trump presidency, the magnitude of the tasks entrusted to Jared Kushner - modernizing the federal government, bringing about peace in the Middle East… - was widely commented on. Why do you think this young man, with no experience in the state, accepted a job like this?
Jared Kushner has always held himself in high regard. People who have worked with him in real estate or in the newspaper he bought the "New York Observer", people who have been in business with him ... They all told me that, in all situations, Jared Kushner is convinced he has mastered the subject, when in reality he does not know anything about it. He believes he can be successful where he has no experience. Moreover, Ivanka is the one of the Trump children that her father most clearly prepared to succeed her. And Jared is her husband. For Trump, it was only natural to give so much responsibility to his son-in-law. And from a Trump clan perspective, Jared did a great job. The problem is, they have blinders on.
Jared Kushner was mobilized to lead the management of the Covid-19 crisis. How do you judge its action?
Jared Kushner has taken the same approach to the pandemic as he has taken his business. He still thought he could find the solutions in his address book. Before, when he attended a family reunion to discuss an upcoming "deal", Jared Kushner would say: "I can call so and so, I know that other, let me make a call ..." pandemic, he tried to do the same. In the first few weeks, when the situation was dire in New York and New Jersey, Jared Kushner's attitude was to stay in touch with politicians in New York and New Jersey. He said to them: let me help you. And in some cases, it has actually been helpful. But that posed a serious problem, firstly because a government response already existed. It’s as if Jared Kushner tried to dismantle and rebuild a plane in midair! The other big problem with this approach is that it cannot be deployed on a large scale for 50 states. Those who did not have Jared Kushner's phone number found themselves abandoned: they weren't answered, they weren't getting what they needed. In the face of a global pandemic, no matter what Donald Trump and his son-in-law say, private sector methods are not enough. The logic of real estate negotiations in New York cannot be applied here: there is always a winner and a loser… To fight a pandemic, everyone must win, together. It's totally foreign to Jared Kushner. But that didn't stop him from being very sure of himself.
Jared and Ivanka were both born into extremely privileged families. Yet when they entered politics, they did so under the banner of supposed populism. What is your view on this paradox?
Donald Trump's genius is making people believe that they can have their share of his success. With his company, on his show “The Apprentice” or with Trump University [denounced as a scam by thousands of former “students”, ndr], he managed to convince people that they could succeed like him, even if they were not introduced among the elites. And that again won over 74 million voters! When it comes to Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump, you also have to keep in mind that they were more conservative and closer to Republicans than many people they knew in New York City thought. One of the most influential people on Jared Kushner is conservative media mogul Rupert Murdoch [who owns Fox News, the “New York Post” and the “Wall Street Journal,” among others). Although his family has long supported Democrats, by 2012 Jared Kushner was no longer giving money to politicians. As for Ivanka Trump, what she gave, she gave almost all of it to Republicans. At that time, she made no secret of her opposition to Obama, she pleaded for debt reduction [like the Republicans at the time, ed] ...
According to the press, Donald Trump is studying the possibility of granting a presidential pardon to his children. Do you have any idea what kind of crimes might be the object of this pardon?
So ... no. According to former Justice Department employees I interviewed, it does not appear that the president should mention the crimes that are the subject of a pardon. He can grant a general grace. This is what Gerald Ford did for the benefit of his predecessor Richard Nixon. The dilemma, however, is that pardon concerns many crimes, even if they are not named! He can always try to pretend that his kids haven't done anything wrong, that it's a witch hunt, that Biden's Justice Department is going to make up crimes from scratch ... I think he's going to do it. , because ultimately, he is convinced that we are trying to harm him and his children. But for the rest of their lives, they will carry that burden.
"Ivanka Trump looks a lot like her father, especially when it comes to her relationship to the truth."
Presidential pardons, however, would not prevent state-level prosecutions, as is already the case in New York ... Could they threaten Donald Trump or his children?
There is something interesting. Ivanka Trump looks a lot like her father, especially when it comes to her relationship to the truth. On the other hand, she has always demonstrated an iron discipline when it comes to communication. On social media, she usually only posts positive images that showcase her action. And yet, on two occasions in recent weeks, she has spoken of her legal woes, accusing prosecutors of being Democrats seeking to bring her down. His communications strategy appears to be to discredit these investigations, two of which in particular give him cause for concern. The most serious is that of the Manhattan prosecutor, which relates to possible tax evasion.
Journalists, like those who work for your podcast "Trump Inc." or David Farenthold at The Washington Post, have scrupulously documented how Donald Trump and his family have become rich since 2016 with public money. Do you think these revelations have kept the president and those close to him from going even further with the gender mix?
It's impossible to know. Throughout my career, I have worked on corruption in politics. I spoke to many voters during the 2016 campaign, and one day I was told, "Don't you think Hillary Clinton is corrupt too?" And I replied, “Hillary Clinton is practicing 'normal' political corruption. Donald Trump is a level without comparison. " The only way to leave a trace of all of this for future generations is to report these phenomena. It is a very imperfect tool, especially since Trump keeps attacking the press. Today people decide first if you are on their side and then they decide whether they believe you or not. But as journalists we have no choice but to present the facts. This is the first step in regaining a shared vision and ambitions.
Even during the Trump presidency, some senior figures in the administration were pushed out for their questionable ethics, such as former Environmental Protection Agency chief Scott Pruitt or Home Secretary Ryan Zinke. . Does this prove that all limits have not disappeared in the past four years?
Difficult to judge. Indeed, at times I believed that the laws of political life had not completely disappeared. But it never touched the top of the administration, or anyone from the president's family. Trump exhausts his entourage and regularly pushes people aside. If he thinks you are harming him, you back out. Some departures may have had more to do with Trump's assertion of power than with the fight against corruption.
By relentlessly promising to "drain the swamp" of corruption four years ago, didn't Donald Trump trick himself into ensuring that he would stand trial on these issues?
In 2016, during the Republican convention, he declared: "No one knows the system better than me" and "Only I can fix it". At that time I was covering the countryside and the voters believed it. "It is true that he knows the system and he can change it if he comes to Washington." In reality, Trump has done the opposite. He made the system even worse. Trump and his constituents have since redefined "draining the swamp": before, it was about keeping lobbyists and private economic interests out of government. Now it’s mostly about firing government employees.
"In New York City, Trump and his family gave so much money to politicians they broke the system"
We understand from reading you that Donald Trump is not the original source of the corruption problems you are exposing. In France, expenses for a presidential campaign are capped at 22.5 million euros, barely half of the funds raised this year by a Democratic candidate - losing! - for a senator's seat in South Carolina, a state which has only 5.1 million inhabitants. How would you explain to a French citizen the role of money in political life in the United States?
The marriage of money and power has become more and more entrenched in American politics for the past 50 years. In my book, I quote at length the work of Thomas Piketty on income inequalities, and in particular on the post-war period. Franklin Delano Roosevelt once said, “Taxes, after all, are dues we pay for the privilege of belonging to an organized society.” There was a time when the top tax rate was over 90%. And people didn’t mind! It was a way to ensure equality. And then slowly, the opposition organized itself, with a strong acceleration under Ronald Reagan. The rich have benefited from massive tax cuts and what have they done with the money? They gave some of it to the political class ... so that they could make even more money. This vicious circle is in place without any control. The climax was reached in 2010 with the Citizens United case, [a decision of the Supreme Court, ndr], which removed all barriers. This is what preceded the election of Donald Trump.
What role did Trump play in this disintegration?
Donald Trump is not at the origin of this system in which we can buy democracy. He wasn't even one of the biggest donors. But he and his family helped corrupt the system from within. In New York, they gave so much money to politicians that they broke the system. They created an expectation: if you pay a politician, you get something in return - tax cuts, building permits… Why do otherwise? By paying a relatively small amount to a politician, you get a favor worth tens of millions of dollars!
To hear you, he simply imported these practices to the White House ...
As president, it’s just like he said, “Pay me and you’ll get something.” He likes people coming to his hotels or paying $ 200,000 to join his Mar-a-Lago club in Florida, which allows them to get an audience with him. Everyone around the world understood that Trump had to be paid. One of the things that struck me most about the Ukraine favors scandal in 2019 was one tiny detail. When Trump called Ukrainian President Zelensky, he told him, "I stayed in your hotel." It seems to me how much the system is dysfunctional.
Do you think some of the standards trampled on by Trump and his entourage will never be restored?
"Never" can be a very long time, right? I think it will take a lot of work. This presidency destroyed a lot of things, starting with the fact that 74 million people really became radicalized. But at the same time this country has gone through some really terrible times in the past and it has changed. I am convinced that income inequality is at the root of much of what has happened in recent years. Disasters often pave the way for change. With the pandemic we are clearly going through a global catastrophe. It is difficult to know the impact it will have and the changes it will cause. While writing my book, I told myself that I could not document, on 400 pages, all these terrible facts, without being optimistic. The last word in the book is “hope”.
